Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. joined Howard Eskin and Hollis Thomas Tuesday morning on SportsRadio 94WIP. The following is a transcript of the conversation, where Amaro touched on the realistic rebuilding time frame, as well as the current status of where the club stands with Cole Hamels, Cliff Lee, Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, and Jonathan Papelbon.
Eskin: Should you have started this [rebuilding] process a couple of years ago?
Amaro Jr.: When you look back at where we were in 2012, clearly we were expecting Chase Utley to come out of the chute and be healthy. Clearly we thought that Ryan Howard would be back, and it was his delayed return from his achilles [injury] that hurt us. We thought that Doc would be healthy. Probably three of our highest paid and most productive players that we were counting on were not healthy. At that point, when you're not healthy and you have heavy contracts that you are relying on, it's difficult to move them and it's a situation where you have to get them healthy and try to get them to be productive again. That was the situation we were in, and we had to deal with it accordingly. We tried to add to it to see if we can contend again.
Eskin: You talk about trying to trade players with those contracts. You moved Jimmy Rollins and that's a good situation. When you look back on it, do you realize that maybe we shouldn't have given older players long-term contracts?
Amaro Jr.: They weren't necessarily older when we gave those contracts out. Chase was a little different, and in the case of Chooch, he was still one of the most productive catchers in the game. As you know, the catching position is one that's very short throughout the Major Leagues. That was a matter of trying to retain a guy that we thought could help us continue to contend. Clearly, after last year we decided that it was time for us to turn the page and make a concerted effort to try to get younger, and to put us in a position to try to build a new core.
Eskin: You have to get younger and start all-over again. How tough is it to do any real trades to do what you really want to accomplish?
Amaro. Jr: It's a challenge that the entire front office is poised to work through. We still have plenty of time this offseason. People think that once the Winter Meetings are over that that's the end of the transaction season. The fact of the matter is, there's still a long way to go. We are still working on a number of things. We'll see whether we can do what we set out to do. We knew it wasn't going to be easy. That's part of the challenge, but I like the challenge. I didn't necessarily want to be in this position, but I'll take the heat for that. The fact of the matter is, we have to make a change and that's what we are working on.
Eskin: Your best chip is Cole Hamels. Will he be traded before the start of the season?
Amaro Jr.: I really don't know. There are a lot of teams that are interested and continue to kick the tires, some teams that are not being rumored out there, and some teams that are. The fact of the matter is, we're not going to move Cole Hamels just to move him. We don't have any mandate from our ownership group to move the money. We don't have the mandate to move this particular player. As I said before, we are in a position right now to do well with Cole Hamels, and to do well if we happen to move him. I would say 50-50. I would rather move forward with Cole Hamels than without him, but if there is a situation that can move our organization forward, we have to keep that in mind and consider it.
Eskin: Teams will have to see if [Cliff Lee] is healthy before you can move him. If you don't move Cole Hamels now and wait until the trade deadline, isn't that more difficult to wait with both of those, to have two left-handers during the season to try to trade?
Amaro Jr.: Everybody and their brothers will be looking for pitching all the time. There's not just one team that is going to contend next year. When you are talking about elite starters, particularly left-handed starters that may be available, I think it puts you in a very good spot. First and foremost, we have to get Lee healthy and make sure that he is pitching like Cliff Lee. Every indication right now is that he is very close to being there. He's on his normal offseason, and is doing very good. There is no way for teams to know what kind of pitcher they are going to get out of him until he is throwing in Spring Training and/or the beginning of the season. I'd rather be in that position than not have those pitchers performing. As part of it being difficult, I actually view it as a great opportunity.
Eskin: Does Ryne Sandberg really want Ryan Howard to even be there at Spring Training?
Amaro Jr.: Ryne is prepared to move forward with younger players. I think he is up for that challenge. I think he wants to be able to have a new group of kids who we can work with and we can impact maybe a little differently. After talking to Ryne about what our direction is, I think he is excited about getting that opportunity. Again, we may be with Ryan Howard, we may not. The fact of the matter is, we are trying to get younger and more athletic. Part of that is making sure we do that across the diamond, not just with Ryan but with other players as well.
Eskin: You have basically said that this team is "better off without Ryan Howard". Does that mean that you really have to move him, or just pay him off and go forward without him?
Amaro Jr.: We are not going to release Ryan Howard. He's still a productive player. He's a quality person, and somebody we would still like to have our young players to be around. I will say it again, with the direction of our club we are looking for younger and more athletic players and he is not as young as athletic as he used to be. If we can reconfigure the club in a way that gets to that goal, that was part of the process and that was the message I gave Ryan. At this stage in his career, he would have a better opportunity to play somewhere else, and we would have a better opportunity to move our organization forward with younger players.
Eskin: Chase Utley is an interesting situation. You would think players have the desire to want to win a championship. The Phillies are not going to win a championship while Chase Utley is still playing baseball. Why do you think he won't allow himself to be traded?
Amaro Jr.: His contract is set up in a way that if he's healthy, he can still be around here for another 3-4 years. I think that Chase's thought process has always been the same. He wants to be in red pinstripes. He wants to be part of a winning team. He feels like he can make an impact on some of the younger guys that we would go with to move the organization forward.
Eskin: Pat Gillick has already stated that the Phillies aren't going to win probably in three years. [Utley's] going to be good for two to three more years, assuming he will be. It's engrained in a competitive guy that you want to win a championship. He's not going to win here. Why would he want to stay here?
Amaro Jr.:I think [Utley] has enough faith in Pat, myself and others to get back to where we were before. Pat made that statement in 2005-2006 about not being contenders for awhile. Lo and behold, two years later we win a World Series. Listen, we have a long way to go. We have some good pieces coming. We are working in trying to build that new core. Frankly, Chase wants to be the guy to help bridge that gap.
Eskin: Why don't teams have interest in Jonathan Papelbon?
Amaro Jr.: There has been some interested teams that have kicked the tires a little bit. Again, part of it is the contract, part of it is they look at his stuff that may be declining somewhat. It is curious, because Pap frankly had an outstanding year last year. He had a 2.00 ERA or so. He finished games. He knows how to win. He knows how to pitch. It is interesting. There's still a lot of offseason left. We'll see how it goes with him.
Eskin: Do you think other teams are afraid of [Jonathan Papelbon's] presence in the locker room?
Amaro Jr.: He's been outstanding for our younger guys in our bullpen. I don't say that as a commercial, I say it as the truth. Guys like Kenny Giles, Diekman and DeFratus really benefited from the way he prepares, from the way he goes about his business, to the way that he is accountable for the times he does poorly and the times he does well. I think that is a very good message that our younger players get.
Eskin: Right now your leadoff hitter is Ben Revere. How can a leadoff hitter (getting 10 walks, and maybe 12 doubles) be that unproductive in the areas where he has to be productive?
Amaro Jr.: It's something that we have to continue to work with Ben on. I think he knows and understands it. But he's one of those guys that is a hacker. He's a slasher. That's what he does. If he's hitting .300 then he can be productive. He just has to score runs. That's the main thing. Not many people out there are walking. Teams will not be afraid of his power, so they'll throw the ball over the plate, which means he has to swing the bat. It's not like he is swinging at pitches out of the zone. He's not going to walk if people are throwing him strikes, which is what teams do to him. [Walking] is not going to be part of his game as long as clubs do not fear his power, which they don't. He has to swing the bat, put it in play, and get hits which is something he does very well.
Eskin: Jimmy Rollins made a comment to Comcast yesterday that he thinks John Middleton is really great for the team and important to what they do. How important is John Middleton (one of the partners that has the biggest chunk right now in the partnership) for this team to move forward?
Amaro Jr.: He does not have the biggest chunk. There are two families basically that are owning the Phillies: the Bucks and the Middletons. Nobody has more than 48%. [Both families] are equally strong. The partnership is set up that no family has majority ownership over another. The Bucks and the Middletons are equally passionate and equally important in our organization. People who are within the organization know that, particularly me who works with them pretty much everyday, as well as Pat Gillick and David Montgomery. The fact of the matter is, they are all important to us. They have given us every opportunity to have success. For a long, long time, from the time I started in the end of 1998 and moving forward, there was a complaint out there that we were not committed to winning. I can tell you that absolutely, unequivocally that is not the truth. I think that this ownership group has shown that year-in and year-out.
Eskin: How long do you think as the general manager is it going to take to contend again?
Amaro Jr.: We feel at some point in the 2016-17 season that we are going to start seeing some of the younger players that we are counting on in our system. Hopefully with some of the things that we can do and find out about with our own, particular club, guys like Maikel Franco, Cody Asche, Domonic Brown (which this year is extremely important for him), to find out whether these are guys that we can build our organization around. If they are, then I think that can be ramped and sped up. We are different from some other clubs like the Astros and some other organizations, because we have a different revenue stream. We have a different set of ownership group that is passionate about winning. It really depends on how quickly our young players advance so we can get ourselves to point where we can add those pieces when it's necessary. Those pieces may come in the offseason next year, or not long after. It really depends on how our young players are developed. If they develop quickly, that time period can be ramped up.
You can download and listen to the entire interview here.
Matt Rappa (@mattrappa) is a contributor to Philliedelphia.com.
